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Message #17034 of 18360  *NEW*
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Robert Jones  
Victims of Liberty
4/19/07, 11:23pm (Last Edited: 4/19/07, 11:27pm)
I am really concerned about the mood of our country in the aftermath of the tragedy at the Va. Tech Campus. I am concerned that we as a nation, as states and as communities are going to enact some knee jerk legislation(s) that will seriously erode many of our civil rights especially our first, second and fourth amendment rights.

I am curious if a beginning writer writing in the style or genre of say Stephen King or Edgar Allen Poe could gain academic support and the encouragement of faculty in the aftermath of this horrible event or would such a writer be viewed as unstable and suspicous and and in need of phsychiatric counseling.

I am bothered deeply by recent events. A lot of noise has been made with people wanting to blame each other on one level or another for what happened. The media vacuum has had a heyday and I kind of feel that the greatest danger from this event is the amount of publicity that the shooter has gained. I think the focus should have been more upon the victims.

The shooter was a deeply troubled, extremely unstable individual. He was on the edge of the law on a couple of occaisions with the stalking accusations....Perhaps if he ever made it into the legal system the tragedy may have been averted.

The depth of the trauma that he has caused to our nation has not been realized. He snuffed out the flames of 32 of our nations brightest candles....candles that were poised to enlighten and add warmth to our world.

We seem to be ready to start burning witches at the stake in the aftermath of this trauma. We seem to be poised to persecute anyone who's behavior seems strange to us. It seems that we are ready to violate some of our nation's founding principles to persecute people for what they might speak....to single out people for being different....to try to seek people out for their potential to harm. One of our founding principles has been that justice is reactionary....that it is better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be punished.

Have we evolved to the point that we have to fear ourselves? That we must stand on alert paranoid of foriegners, paranoid of loners, paranoid to send our kids to school?

Freedom is risky business...Freedom of speech encourages freedom to challenge the status quo...it allows challenges to morality and challenges to the norm. Has today's world become so volatile that Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, The Right to be Free of Unwarranted Searches.....are these becoming outdated concepts in the face of modern society?

I am afraid that in the light of modern events that we are going to see more than an errosion of our civil right....I am afraid that they are going to be burried under a landslide of paranoia. Are we evolving beyond our capacity to be free?

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Message #17037 of 18360  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
saundrabeach  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 11:03am (Last Edited: 4/20/07, 4:51pm)
graphic


Robert, just read your well thought out passionate post. I find that I agree with most of what you say.

Yesterday was a prime example of the ramifications of what a media frenzy can initiate. Two outspoken students were singled out due to the VA Tech tragedy, where they may not have been prior. One of them was actually arrested from his school (sanctuary, sharing of ideas, for learning and expression) for exercising his constitutional right of "freedom of speech"... He was voicing his opinions in trying to figure out why this person commited these heinous acts. It sounded like he was condoning this massacre. His teacher acted as the media was putting blame on the professors at VA Tech in not acting. Witch hunts, Salem relived perhaps. Where do we draw the line?

Wonder if any action will be taken towards the VA Tech student that added a "33rd" flag or balloon to the memorial set up at the college stating on a sign that "Cho was a student too."

I found I became so disturbed with watching this maladjusted individual speak his venom of hate, that I turned the channel again and again. I lingured to catch more hate filled statements as each channel had different pieces of his disjointed ranting. I was looking for an answer as to why... Haven't found one, but today I choose to not watch. I understand why the grieving parents have boycotted television appearances of the stations airing this.

As an over protective, hands on mother, I found I was relieved that my brood was out of school. But how can I protect them from life as adults I cannot. Being in the WRONG place at the WRONG time is a crap shoot. Win some lose some. But in school?
I remember always feeling they were safe there. Wow. I think in these times, I would opt for "Home Schooling" But then they still would go out to play. Then there exists "drive by" shootings...OMG! My brain is pulsing as I know yours is as well.

While I want stronger laws to protect all of us. More money for more law enforcement. I want the government to back up.

Anyone else feel the computer is George Orwell's "Big Brother?" Hummmm.

Our nation, while maybe it is time for a "Woman" or "Black" president (black woman could do it) I am looking for a "Golda" to bring us back home. Just a thought.

God Bless Us All!

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Message #17041 of 18360  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
Rob Reed  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 2:43pm
graphic
Interesting post, Robert... and interesting addition from me. When I was in college, in an advanced Creative Writing class, I wrote a story with the intention of showing the downside of religion.

The method?

A semi-retarded 20-something goes on a rampage killing people because he believes God is commanding him to do it.

The teacher didn't report me to the authorities. He didn't suggest I seek counseling. He simply wondered -- in writing -- on my paper what business I had in his class as he put an "F" on the paper.

I thought I was being clever.

Ooops.

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"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #17043 of 18360  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 4:44pm
graphic
>Interesting post, Robert... and interesting addition from me.
>When I was in college, in an advanced Creative Writing class,
>I wrote a story with the intention of showing the downside of
>religion.
>
>The method?
>
>A semi-retarded 20-something goes on a rampage killing people
>because he believes God is commanding him to do it.
>
>The teacher didn't report me to the authorities. He didn't
>suggest I seek counseling. He simply wondered -- in writing
>-- on my paper what business I had in his class as he put an
>"F" on the paper.
>
>I thought I was being clever.
>
>Ooops.


hummmm something else this mom didn't know...eeks

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Message #17044 of 18360  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Rob Reed  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 5:37pm
graphic
>hummmm something else this mom didn't know...eeks

I was a quick learner in college. Write on subjects that the teacher likes... I figured this guy out pretty quickly after this story debacle, and the remainder of my writing projects were political in nature.

And, that's why, after an initial F, I ended up with a B in the class (and no psychiatric evaluations!)

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #17045 of 18360  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 6:02pm
graphic
>>hummmm something else this mom didn't know...eeks
>
>I was a quick learner in college. Write on subjects that the
>teacher likes... I figured this guy out pretty quickly after
>this story debacle, and the remainder of my writing projects
>were political in nature.
>
>And, that's why, after an initial F, I ended up with a B in
>the class (and no psychiatric evaluations!)


Can I hear an "Amen!" lol

You certainly were a fast learner. Blessed I know. I love hearing stories I never knew about you. We moms think we know it all.

Hummm another birthday approaching probably faster than you would like. lol I have been your age and it isn't bad at all. Enjoy your first birthday as a Daddy!

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Message #17046 of 18360  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Robert Jones  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/20/07, 8:16pm
Wonder if any action will be taken towards the VA Tech student that added a "33rd" flag or balloon to the memorial set up at the college stating on a sign that "Cho was a student too."

Somehow I wanted to respond to this statement...I was unaware that this event transpired. I think we are all in agreement that he suffered from some form of mental illness or at least had severe phsycological issues. I would rather he would have died in relative anonimity and I wish that the media would have refrained from publishing his propaganda. I am afraid that the attention that he got will inspire copycat behavior. There may be that type of danger in mourning his death too.

There is so much tragedy here. Those kids aspiring toward careers and beginning their adult lives. The teachers aspiring to share their knowledge and inspire the aspiring. The number of lives that these individuals would have touched through their careers and the benefits that they would have given to humanity through their life's work and achievements....all of that was so tragically lost in this tragedy.

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Message #17099 of 18360  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
Mike Reed  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/26/07, 12:47pm
graphic

Let me start off by saying that this incident is unacceptable and the taking of human life is not a right of anyone. Whether they are the US government killing tens of thousands of civilians in IRAQ, Boarder PAtrol agents shooting illegal immigrants crossing the political border, a rober shooting a clerk or a troubled college student taking away the lives of bright young Americans Teachers and faculty.

But instead of just dwelling on the lost and ONLY, ONLY looking at who did this act, we need to be asking ourselves how could this of happened. Why would someone feel they need to do this.

Is it Video Games? Some would like to say so. Others would disagree. I sit on the fence of this issue. Yes I believe they can put ideas in ones head, but I also believe it can be an outlet to get out anger.

One could say the violence on the NEWS is just as harmful. The difference there is that there is no outlet to allow yourself to interact and release your aggression. But a critic might state that this is why video games are worse, because you actually can act out the violence. I have killed about a million people including aliens, robots, and mutants. But I would never go on a murderous rampage in the real world. And why is that. Why am I able to release some stress and have a little fun taking over the world, some distant planet or just anothers base and not take those actions and produce them in real life situations.

Feelings I believe play the key role. How you are affected by your surroundings, and how you are treated and taken care of make or break you.

This Virginia Tech incident should be a reminder to everyone in this country that there are those who didn't do well on the spelling bee, can't play sports very well, can't sing, have not learned how to properly socially act with others, are not handsome, nor beautiful/pretty/cute; there are those that the norms of society and parts of society that we are addicted to, leave out and alienate.

A lot get through it. Wheather its good friends, a strong family network, or a great meantor or role model they get through it and eventually turn their life into something society deems is acceptable. (what they do behind closed doors society doesn't know about)

But then there are the ones who don't have the simple things that so many of us take for granted.
A person can be(positively)functioanl in society and be apart of society when they have at least one thing that links them to whats popular, acceptable and sometimes unacceptable like illegal drugs.

An ugly person will find they have a lot in common with other people that society says is ugly. A person with a lack of self esteem might find shelter with others like them. A clumsy non athletic individual could have a strong family unit and have a safe place to go to after they are made fun of. Even the smart kid who may be bombarded with riducule and teasing from his peers because its not cool to be smart could have some extra curricular activity that lets them blow off steam and reminds them that not everyone is horrible.

But what happens if you don't have a network to help you feel comfterble with the life that is put in front of you. What happens when your made fun of and no one is there to tell you otherwise. What happens when you can't throw a ball and no one is there to tell you its ok to be different. What happens when you notice all the car adds on tv, the beautiful watches, the flashy clothes on people walking by, and no one is there to teach you about luck, our differences, and how some people need to work harder than others and that our society needs to have people who are not equal, otherwise it would cease to function. In general, what if no one is there to tell them "life isn't fair." (These three words were stated by my past university president while we were lobbying on behalf of the studentsto stop the fee increases to the university.)

If a person doesn't have the means for an escape from the hell thats put in front of them, their anger only grows. Each year of anger creates a new branch of hatred and intolerance.

Many people are very angry, and many people never resort to the unacceptable violence that this kid decided to take. But they will usually have some form of network that will allow them to release their anger, or not direct it towards other humans (say yoga, martial arts, warm baths with melodic music, exercise, long walks on the beach, SEX and lots of it, good friends, good familiy, a mentor, gardening and yes even hunting) The force of fireing a gun is an incredible feeling. It can realease a enormous amount of stress. But thats firing a gun at a target paper, or say a beer bottle or maybe an animal (but I strongly strongly say that hunting should only be reserved for animals that have become over populized that they threaten other native species. (This actually could be thought of towards humans BUT,,,, because I am a product of the system and have my outlets, I would never think or do such a thing nor would most.)

Right now, and even after the colombine shooting, this is what the media should be talking about. This is what we all should be talking about. What is wrong with society that it has created a product such as this. We all are products of our environment. Genetics does play a role, but the jury is still out and will be out for decades as to which, genetics or socialization plays the bigger role in who we are. I know about different outlets of release because of who and what has been around me.
A young boy/girl doesn't just genetically think there is a santa clause. They learn it. We may genetically know that when you have 3 cans and take away 1 there are 2 left, but the numbers themselves are learned symbols.

Society has created this child, this young adult, this human being that we see blasted all over the media. He is not a freak of nature, he is a part of the equation. The second we start realizing this, is the second we will start to really improve our culture and the culture of this world.

So I say " this boy, no matter how unnacceptable his actions were, he deserves to be remebered." He is an example of what turning a blind eye can do. He is a product of our society. A product that seems to be becoming more common as our population grows, and the posability of prosperity grows less with competition.

I realize that it is a lot easier for me to look at this point of view than say the victims families, but what one needs to remeber is that people are blinded by their own emotions. We all are. Blinded by love, blinded by jelousy, blinded by hatred, blinded by fear, and also, blinded by emotional and physical pain

I do not wish to affend anyone, nor make a mockery of the feelings of the victims families. But the devils advocate usually does just that. My intetion is to try and bring another side to this matter. By castrating this boy, shamming him and pushing him out of the crowd, we are ony continuing the treatment in his death that led him to undertake this horrific act in the first place.

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Message #17101 of 18360  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Robert Jones  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/26/07, 3:42pm
That was well said Mike. I think the real scary thing about this...and without the media's airing all the dirty laundry we would not know this, is that there is a little of that guy in all of us. I think we have all been targeted at one point in our lives and shunned on one level or another.

It seems he embraced the ostracism and he embraced being shunned from society and he used that to fuel a hatred to seek revenge against society.

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Message #17103 of 18360  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
Larry Levy  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/27/07, 8:40am (Last Edited: 4/27/07, 8:41am)
graphic
Right.

This isn't a perfect world and we're always going to have mentally-unbalanced people in it who will do horrible acts like this.

I think we were all picked on at one time or another in school. I know middle school was very hard on me. I was a nerdy, slightly overweight kid with few friends. Kids constantly picked on me and were mean to me. One time they threw all my books onto the roof of the school, yet I never considered violence. I think most people would never consider it either. That doesn't mean there won't be mentally ill people who would. It also doesn't mean it's society's fault, in my view.

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Message #17107 of 18360  *NEW*
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Larry Levy
saundrabeach  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/27/07, 9:20am
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Just my opinion here now...The way I see this World changing? or is it? When reading the Bible from the earliest times, one sees even early mankind's insanity, or is it.

There is an expression..."Everything OLD is NEW again" thought that just pertained to clothes lol.

While we living in the 21st century, know technology abounding...Is it an answer to less insanity, or better yet, kindness to each other? I think and observe NOT!

Where is this new pope? Where are all the Rabbis? This is what we need now, over government that appears to be self serving at best, because does anyone see "Peace on Earth" since they have been born? Lots of TALK.

Cho, the media's latest victim, isn't unique with his murders, just labeled the "worst"... Is he mentally ill, or just the "Devil's Player?

Heavy thoughts, but daily I have grown a larger thumb from looking for uplifting, positive news of mankind. Larger from remote controling.

Look around you, seems like everyone you know, or read about is either "Bi Polar" and/or on some prescription drug to allieviate depression and/or anxiety.

What did they do before "Prescription Drugs"

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Message #17111 of 18360  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Larry Levy  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/27/07, 11:02am
graphic
Our religious leaders are still there. We're the ones moving away from them. We're always so concerned about eliminating any thing that has to do with religion.

I remember something I read after Columbine. I don't remember what it said exactly, but it was questioning where God was in all that and God said, "I'm not allowed in school."

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Message #17117 of 18360  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Robert Jones  
Re: Victims of Liberty
4/27/07, 8:08pm
I am not a very religous person....I am not anti-religion either but perhaps it fits best within my perspective. I have a tangible feel for human feelings and human nature. I understand what it is like to be picked on and to be shunned or ostracized...that is within the realm of the human experience and I have suffered through some of those experiences within my lifetime. The difference here is that this guy seems to have embraced those feelings and cultivated a hatred and resentment toward everyone else. That hatred, coupled with physcological instability seems to have manifested itself in fantasy and eventually a series of horrific acts. Phsychologically speaking, that is my explaination for what happened. I am no expert but I am not sure that anybody or anything other than if he would have been institutionalized because of his mental/psychological instability could have prevented this incident from happening.

The loss of those aspiring young people and the wisdom, contributions and tutiledge of the professors is beyond tragic, beyond horrific. It is such a tragic loss to humanity and our country.

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