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Message #1984 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed  
Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/23/07, 10:00am
graphic
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/articl
e/2007/03/23/AR2007032300284.html

Please keep in mind that alcohol, tobacco, and substances like caffeine are all legal DRUGS. They cause a chemical change in your body and produce an alien affect. This is called the high or buzed/drunk with alcohol, buzzed/dizzy/ disappearance of hunger or your stress fix with tobacco, and your jitters or sudden pick me up with coffee, tea, soda or caffeine pills.

So the argument of a war against drugs is not going to fly well when we our a country that has legal drugs that in a lot of ways are hurting us more than illegal drugs. And, lets not forget about the amount of Americans on some form of a prescription from a doctor that for some reason is considered ok in this country because it is approved by the FDA to be prescribed by doctors.

Lets analyze the FDA for just one second. Yes a governmental body under the executive branch. Yes their regulations make it so our food has labels and that what is stated on the container really is represented in the product. Excellent. But they are also a federal body that is constantly lobbied by pharmaceutical companies to approve their products. With gifting, pressure from corporations as well as the desire of Americans to have a quick fix (You know the I need it yesterday syndrome) Prescription meds are out of control.

Example: If a person is depressed, (that word is used way too loosely) common medical treatment is to give them medication which will help increase their endorphins or serotonin in the body. Endorphins are happy neuro transmitters and seretonin is a nuro transmitter that helps regulate mood. (as well as other things)

This is possibly an advancement in medicine. However, doctors are too quick to throw out the prescription for a company that has recently sent them to hawaii, or given them 500 note pads and coffee mugs, or even a bonus for every X amount of their product the doctor prescribes. This is not happening across the board with doctors, but enough to make a drug problem (prescription drug problem) of America worse.

If meds are going to be given for something like depression or any of the new disorders that we now have a name for to sell more prescription medication; therapy needs to go along side it.

Without guidence, and a therapist to help a person learn from their problems and disorder, that person is just on drugs. The drugs help them perform better in society (suposedly) but they do not teach the patient how to do it on their own without the drugs. The person then becomes reliant on a pill for the rest of their life. Life is not easy, and sometimes a nice little white pill can make it go all away. Doesn't this sound like an illegal drug users perspective. Its the same, except the illegal drug is not as clean because its not regulated, nor is it "legal."

Here's a little flip flop: I think its excellent when polliticians flip flop. If they find that their origianl thinking is not correct, they should be logical and change their stance. No one is perfect and a honest politician that can be swaywed with a logical argument is better than a politician that won't listen to reason and despite the evidence will not back down
Ex: Bush and the Iraq war.

Flip Flopping of the FDA: In 1937 the young FDA came out in support of marijuana and stated before congress at the hearings of the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 that they can find no reason why marijunana should be made illegal.
In April of 2006 the FDA came out and made a statemnt saying there are no medical benefits to marijuana. Now I know these are a bit different, but its interesting that the FDA would make such a bold statement. I don't care who you are. It you have cancer and your taking chemo, marijuana will help you eat so you have strength. Wait a minute, isn't that a midicinal effect that has been replicated over and over again in various countries including this one. I know my brother will jump on this one and say something on the lines of lets smoke a couch man. But all sillyness aside, why do we take pain killers, to aleviate an unbarable pain. Why do some people take medical marijuana (some not all) because for some reason the way the human body reacts to marijauana has a more desirable affect than a lot of the prescription meds out there.

Just ask Angel Raich from Oakland California. The federal Supreme Court has recently ruled in the summer of 2005 that even though the federal government see's marijuana and all parts of the plant as illegal with no medicinal value, they have the right to regulate it due to the law governing interstate commerce. (Raich v. Gonzalez originally Raich and Monsoon v. Ashcroft.) The court ruled that even though Angel Raich was growing her own, paid no fee with money or trade with it, did not use a credit card which the transaction can pass state lines. Basically, even though there was no trade whatsoever and that it was intrastate commerce not interstate commerce the court ruled that medical marijuana grown in a patients own home with consent from a doctor can affect the price of marijuana in other states therefor making it interstate commerce. The case sets a precedent that anything grown or made in a persons home can affect the price of interstate commerece. This opens a box of possabilities of the government invasion into your home.
Your growing basil, and you might GIVE (YEP GIVE) it to a family member. But that could affect the price of basil on the market in other states because you are making it so less people buy basil. Therfore the federal government can tax you on it or tell you how much basil u can grow or even thaT YOU can't grow it at all.

Sounds like what the government already does with things like tobacco. Yes very true, but this is different on the lines that it invades a homes privacy, and creates a precedent that a product that doesn't affect trade will mysteriously affect trade. If your a medicinal user growing to sell, then yes you are affecting trade. If you are a medicinal user who is growing for solely personal use, you are not affecting interstate commerce and this case should be ruled as unconstitutional. . The right to life liberty and property is dwindling. Ok you can have your property, but that whole liberty thing that the courts have narrowed a definition down to be close to the idea of privacy, yea we can forget that.

Angel Raich is on her deathbead currently. In a recent appeal to the supreme court, her plea was once again rejected and the poster child for medicinal marijuana will die without the legal right to take the only medication that helps her eat and enjoy whats left of life with the least amount of undesirable side affects.

Well done America, another win in the drug war

Anyway, I hope you read this article below and see how everything in society is a social construction. Whats illegal here is not everywhere, and what works today, may not work tomorrow.


Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs

By MARIA CHENG
The Associated Press
Friday, March 23, 2007; 3:41 AM

LONDON -- New "landmark" research finds that alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than some illegal drugs like marijuana or Ecstasy and should be classified as such in legal systems, according to a new British study.

In research published Friday in The Lancet magazine, Professor David Nutt of Britain's Bristol University and colleagues proposed a new framework for the classification of harmful substances, based on the actual risks posed to society. Their ranking listed alcohol and tobacco among the top 10 most dangerous substances.

Nutt and colleagues used three factors to determine the harm associated with any drug: the physical harm to the user, the drug's potential for addiction, and the impact on society of drug use. The researchers asked two groups of experts _ psychiatrists specializing in addiction and legal or police officials with scientific or medical expertise _ to assign scores to 20 different drugs, including heroin, cocaine, Ecstasy, amphetamines, and LSD.

Nutt and his colleagues then calculated the drugs' overall rankings. In the end, the experts agreed with each other _ but not with the existing British classification of dangerous substances.

Heroin and cocaine were ranked most dangerous, followed by barbiturates and street methadone. Alcohol was the fifth-most harmful drug and tobacco the ninth most harmful. Cannabis came in 11th, and near the bottom of the list was Ecstasy.

According to existing British and U.S. drug policy, alcohol and tobacco are legal, while cannabis and Ecstasy are both illegal. Previous reports, including a study from a parliamentary committee last year, have questioned the scientific rationale for Britain's drug classification system.

"The current drug system is ill thought-out and arbitrary," said Nutt, referring to the United Kingdom's practice of assigning drugs to three distinct divisions, ostensibly based on the drugs' potential for harm. "The exclusion of alcohol and tobacco from the Misuse of Drugs Act is, from a scientific perspective, arbitrary," write Nutt and his colleagues in The Lancet.

Tobacco causes 40 percent of all hospital illnesses, while alcohol is blamed for more than half of all visits to hospital emergency rooms. The substances also harm society in other ways, damaging families and occupying police services.

Nutt hopes that the research will provoke debate within the UK and beyond about how drugs _ including socially acceptable drugs such as alcohol _ should be regulated. While different countries use different markers to classify dangerous drugs, none use a system like the one proposed by Nutt's study, which he hopes could serve as a framework for international authorities.

"This is a landmark paper," said Dr. Leslie Iversen, professor of pharmacology at Oxford University. Iversen was not connected to the research. "It is the first real step towards an evidence-based classification of drugs." He added that based on the paper's results, alcohol and tobacco could not reasonably be excluded.

"The rankings also suggest the need for better regulation of the more harmful drugs that are currently legal, i.e. tobacco and alcohol," wrote Wayne Hall, of the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, in an accompanying Lancet commentary. Hall was not involved with Nutt's paper.

While experts agreed that criminalizing alcohol and tobacco would be challenging, they said that governments should review the penalties imposed for drug abuse and try to make them more reflective of the actual risks and damages involved.

Nutt called for more education so that people were aware of the risks of various drugs. "All drugs are dangerous," he said. "Even the ones people know and love and use every day."

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Message #1985 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Larry Levy  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/23/07, 10:31am
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It's basically "pick your poison."

Mine is caffeine. That's about it.

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" I lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my help.", Psalm 121
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Message #1986 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/23/07, 1:43pm (Last Edited: 3/23/07, 2:14pm)
graphic
I believe that people that take and abuse illegal drugs and legalized alcohol are trying to help themselves cope with the daily stress and "uncomfort" zone of life. Wouldn't these people be better if they consulted with trained medical specialists to get to the chemical inbalances, that are most certainly unwanted, and treat legally until they feel like themselves, then hide behind illegal substances. That have been proven to be killers such as ecstacy, etc. Hummmm?

No one wants to feel badly, face it. Everyone seeks their own "poison" I prefer chocolate and ice cream. Knowing that it is bad for me, I indulge and reach for it to self soothe. Might as well put it on my tummy than in it, cause that is where it ends up.

The youth, since one can remember, has always tried to do the "shocking" or "unacceptable" practices to get "noticed" and be "out there" or "different" than their parents or the so called "norm" of the times. That is a well documented fact. Even with their music.

Life is hard for most, true, and perhaps those in mental institutes are the normal ones that cannot cope with what life has to offer them, so they in their way rebel and collapse as it were and enter a facility to shut out the horrors of daily dilemas.

Bottom line, there is a time to grow up and face the music so to speak. Give up childish things such as anything illegal or abusive to one's self such as the over indulgence in any substance that is mind altering ar ultimatingly debilitating to one's person, in my opinion and from so much that I have read.

While, I personally feel Marijuana is still illegal because the alcohol powers that be, oppose it and do not want to "share" the income. Don't they realize people use both to get an even higher escape from reality?

As far as smoking goes, if Las Vegas, Sin City is working on getting rid of one's freedom to smoke in most places, then the states might very well become "smoke free" so even the threat of second hand smoke will be gone, If they can do it HERE, they can do it anywhere.

I applaud your dedicated research, just find it obscure in the scheme of things.

Your loving mother

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TREAT OTHERS LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED WELCOME EACH NEW DAY! Just When Your Children Are Fit To Live With, They Are Living With Someone Else!
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Message #1987 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Mike Reed  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/24/07, 10:28am
graphic
Thank you for your comments, you have an interesting take on this issue. Though I do not fully disagree with you, there are some statements thats need to be looked at.

You stated that ecstasy was a killer. There are no known cases of anyone dying from pure ecstacy except from dehydration, or believe it or not, over hydration. Yep humans can die from having too much water. It causes your cells to almost blow up because they can't handle all the water.

But most illegal drugs excluding meth and cocaine are quite safe if they are pure. (meth and cocaine are both very dangerous fro the body naturally) Ecstacy is technically a thype of meth, but its chemical makeup (very similar but not identical) affects the body very differently than (speed meth)

A lot of these illegal drugs are made in labs just like pharmaceuticals. The difference is FDA approval, societal wide acceptance, and the dirtyness factor. Some of these labs are very dirty, plus in a capitalist society, which we all live in, it is more profitable for the dealer to cut the illegal drug with something like baby powder, aspirin or some non purified drug they were making but failed to make more quantity to sell. Its generally the alien substances in a drug that will hurt u, not the drug itself. Well what you do on the drug itself might hurt the person as well, but thats a different argument.

There is also the factor of the chemist rushing the formula. This can be incredibly dangerous. Ex: in the late 80's and early 90's in California there was a man who was making synthetic heroin. (something similar to oxy cotten, u know that synthetic heroin substance that Rush Limbaugh was caught taking 30 pills a day of. But he was taking medication right, it was prescribed, so he's not a drug user, just got a little carried away. =) Yea right, a high is a high no matter where you get it from. BY the way Limbaugh has always said that drug users should go directly to jail. I wobder if he will turn himself in being the moral and principled man he is.
OK anyway this guy in California made heroin except he rushed the cooling process. But just by doing that one thing, it turned the heroin into a different substance. IT turned it into a drug that induced parkinsons disease. No joke, this is very true. It was a small epidemic and about a dozen Californians got parkinsons from this substance.

Heroin in its natural pure form made from morphine is actually clean and safe. Very addictive (1 in 2 get addicted but 2 out of 3 people trying crack for the first time get addicted, why is heroin looked at as the drug has you, while crack is looked at as its your fault?) COuld money and staus play a role?)Heroin can make a person spend their entire fortune in buying it, but it can be taken (once the user has experience with it, not an amature user) for years without much damage to the body. (keep in mind it has to be done cleanly as well clean needles, clean heroin, safe environment, healthy body that gets its vitamins ect. The vein part can become a factor especially if they are not extra careful in how they take it. If you don;t believe me look into research that not biased with a government stamp of gateway drug on it. Look towards other countries research. And if you want to ask someone, ask Keith Richards. Still kicking, still playing music and touring in his 60's and he did heroin for YEARS, rumored he still does it, but it could be just a rumor.

If it was regulated, the drug would be clean, the suer would have access to the clean paraphernalia and with the money saved in incarceration and court fee's that money could be spent towards rehab cliniques but not the old style, a Minnesota's model approach that uses 7 different disciplines to try and help the user, psychology, sociology, religion, and exercise to name a few. The Minnesota model has been very effective, and with more research into helping people rather than throwing them away, the model can only get better as we evolve.

ok Just one more thing, When you said something like younger people need to grow up and stop doing illegal substances or something like that. Well what one has to consider about laws and rules of society is that they are all social constructions.

Having sex with a 14 year old boy is illegal for a 40-50 year old man in todays American society. (our culture) But if you asked Plato, Aristotle, or Socrates (some of our philosophers that we hold dear to. They would see nothing wrong with sex with a 14 year old boy. They would even introduce you to their boys whom they have sex with. They would say however that it is not right for them to be in love with their boy toys. It was acceptable for the boy to be in love with the older man because he was in a mentor position, a position that he looked up to (literally). BUt the Greeks believe that it was immoral for the older man to be in love with the boy.

The point is rules and laws are important for a society to function, especially these huge societies we have created. The world has never known a population this size. To not have rules and laws would be a disaster. But all those rules are social constructions and do not all hold true or work indefinately.

Sodomy - not just anal sex but includes and type of sex that is not "normal" What is normal what is usual. Well when they made the laws it turned out that doggystyle, oral sex, anal sex, gay sex, and just about anything not missionary style was not normal therfore making those all illegal under the sodomy laws. Today,
you can't buy a porno without anal, oral, or some form of positions they are set in that is illegal under this sodomy law.
Thank goodness believe it or not, some sodomy laws were still in affect in some states until recently. The supreme court struck down on them as not being constitutional.

The point is, just because its a rule or law, doesn't make it golden. We make mistakes, and we are constantly evolving and changing as a species and as a culture.

But I do appreciate the response and like I said I don;t necessarily disagree with you, just about a few things.

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Message #1988 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/24/07, 10:45am (Last Edited: 3/24/07, 10:46am)
graphic
If you *REALLY* look at this with a critical eye and not favored towards one side of the other, consider this one simple fact.

Alcohol and tobacco are sold in stores. They are freely available. Just like Big Macs. And, if you included Big Macs in this presumably expensive and exhausting (waste of time, in my view) research, Big Macs would probably rise above the level of even alcohol and tobacco if you talk about medical effects.

Point: this research, if you really look at it from an unbiased perspective (and, remember, I am not against the legalization of marijuana), this research is much ado about nothing.

Also, be careful of smokescreen arguments. You are talking about someone on her deathbed, but you didn't say why she was on her deathbed. Is she on her deathbed because she doesn't eat because she has no access to pot? Or, is she on her deathbed because of the terminal illness that she has which is why she is requesting legal use of marijuana.

Then, the other glaring issue. You aren't about to suggest that because this woman lost in the legal system that she isn't smoking marijuana anymore? You *KNOW* that this suggestion is laughable.

Loved the post. I hope that you will consider starting a blog on here... you might hit the big time as a blogger.

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #1989 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Larry Levy  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/24/07, 6:06pm (Last Edited: 3/24/07, 6:08pm)
graphic
Mike,

I'll let the good folks at Narconon sum X up: "Physical symptoms such as muscle tension, involuntary teeth clenching, nausea, blurred vision, rapid eye movement, faintness, and chills or sweating.
Increases in heart rate and blood pressure, a special risk for people with circulatory or heart disease.

Recent research findings also link MDMA use to long-term damage to those parts of the brain critical to thought and memory. It is thought that the drug causes damage to the neurons that use the chemical serotonin to communicate with other neurons. In monkeys, exposure to MDMA for 4 days caused brain damage that was evident 6 to 7 years later. This study provides further evidence that people who take MDMA may be risking permanent brain damage. "

Gee, I think I'll run right out and get some

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" I lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my help.", Psalm 121
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Message #1990 of 2187  *NEW*
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Larry Levy
Mike Reed  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/25/07, 10:06am
graphic
Well like anything, new research will come out to change or shed new light on a situation. But always remember animals are not humans, but they can tell us a lot and help us get close.
Ex: pigs skin is almost identically to humans. A lot of makeup companies like to use pigs to test if their new product will irritate human skin. However this isn't fool proof. There are times where a product will burn a pigs skin and not a humans. The same is true in reverse.

"Physical symptoms such as muscle tension, involuntary teeth clenching, nausea, blurred vision, rapid eye movement, faintness, and chills or sweating.
Increases in heart rate and blood pressure, a special risk for people with circulatory or heart disease.

To the user, some of these side effects are undesirable. teeth clenching can do jaw damage the next day or even permanent. I have met a girl who did it once and still today she has to go to the doctor to get her jaw looked at.
Nausea I have never really heard of. But if there is nausea, its would be generally at the point just before the drug really takes effect. Almost like your body preparing itself.
The rapid eye movement makes for a good show. =)
The high blood pressure and heart rate is very common for many different drugs legal and illegal. Plus a cute girl walking by gets my blood pressure boiling and my heart rate speeding. So does a good argument with someone especially if they are family members.

okokok Its not perfect and I won;t say it is, but that advertisement that I saw for prescription medication on the TV had some interesting side effects as well : anal leakage, impotence, diarrhea, nausea headaches ect. BASicly you choose your drug, legal or illegal that has the least amount of side effects that is undesirable. On Ecstacy, one may have these side effects like nausea, REM, teeth clenching high blood pressure ect, but the high itself makes it for the most part all ok.

Just like to some people, a little anal leakage is a small price to pay for the help that they receive from the medicine or how it makes them feel.

Lets not all go start doing Ecstacy, but lets all start viewing this whole topic from another view. Yes I'm biased, but the majority of society or maybe at least voters or people that will get out there and do something about this are biased in the other direction.

Awsome though, thank you for your response, maybe I should start a blog as what was recommended by my brother. I can get the world to argue with me. =-)Take care and I hope you reply to any future tangents I have. =) It makes for a good conversation. If everyone always agreed, would there be a need for conversation besides simple statements.

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Message #1991 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Larry Levy  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/25/07, 1:32pm
graphic
Hi, Mike,

Any member of the Reed family is a friend of mine. You are absolutely entitled to your views on drugs. I don't agree with you, but that's ok.

I've seen a lot of lives messed up by drugs. A lot of young people with potential go down the drain because of it.

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" I lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my help.", Psalm 121
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Message #1992 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Dr. Rub
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/25/07, 3:44pm
Awesome read Mike! I enjoyed your post. I do not have an opinion on the matter, but you made some very interesting points. You argued your side of it very well. A lot of what you said makes since to me. I'm not really saying I agree or disagree though. You should definately voice your opinions on here more often.

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"Losers always whine about giving their best. Winners get to go home & ---- the prom queen." (Sean Connery)
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Message #1993 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
Mike Reed  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/27/07, 1:16pm
graphic
Thanx Doc, I appreciate your feedback. Though this seems like a weird topic for me to say so, the drug culture and war has helped lead me to want to be a lawyer. It can't be all that bad. =) I say its weird because you never hear someone thank drugs or the war against it for guiding them in a better direction. Its usually the same old story that it destroyed their life, their son/daughters ect. For me, though I have turned towards environmental law, it still helps provide the fuel to keep the fire burning.

I'll deff keep posting, but be careful what you wish for, I can ramble on forever. I love to tell stories.

Everyone always has a snazzy ending so I will end this with a poem that was written during the WW2 holocaust that rang true then and still can hold true today with how we need to look out for each other and help rather than destroy or not do anything.

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

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Message #1995 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Randy Edwards  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/27/07, 3:49pm (Last Edited: 3/27/07, 3:50pm)
graphic
I stand neutral on your post, even though I saw it from a biased way a couple of years ago when I was a cop. I don't like the taste of any alcohol, and can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke. But I must admit, I'd burn a fatty if I could!

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Life is great..........Randy

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Message #1996 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Dr. Rub
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
3/27/07, 11:51pm
Loved "First They came for the Jews"! That was pretty cool.

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"Losers always whine about giving their best. Winners get to go home & ---- the prom queen." (Sean Connery)
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Message #1998 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Robert Reed  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
4/2/07, 2:31am
graphic
Goodness me that is a lot to read, very well written, agree with some , disagree with some, however defend your right to say so, and it makes more sense than what Rose O'Donnell is "ranting about" lately, love you always, Dad.

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Message #2003 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
4/14/07, 10:26pm
graphic
>Thank you for your comments, you have an interesting take on
>this issue. Though I do not fully disagree with you, there are
>some statements thats need to be looked at.

***************************************************************
I have been off this forum for near a month as my computers both "freaked" out at the same time. I just picked them up from my Geek squad repaired and ready to go. Yours is the first I read and am replying.

My first thought was "boy did I do something RIGHT in deciding to risk my life and possibly yours in utero to go through my pregnancy (which happened to be my very best one after all) and have yet one more son. YOU! Having said that with true love, pride and sincerity, I begin my response.


>You stated that ecstasy was a killer. There are no known cases>of anyone dying from pure ecstacy except from dehydration, or\n
>believe it or not, over hydration. Yep humans can die from
>having too much water. It causes your cells to almost blow up
>because they can't handle all the water.

Interesting new knowledge to me. I just remember hearing when you were a cute teeny bopper, about the "raves" and yes the deaths that the news media reported at that time. It frightened me and I remember being "on your back" at the time and warning you to be careful and hopefully NOT partake of such ecstacy drugs, etc.. You assured me that you were into "natural substances" and did not advocate the injesting of said substances. I believed you, mostly because I wanted to, and then because I felt you had a superb head on your shoulders.
****************************************************************
>
>But most illegal drugs excluding meth and cocaine are quite
>safe if they are pure. (meth and cocaine are both very
>dangerous fro the body naturally) Ecstacy is technically a
>thype of meth, but its chemical makeup (very similar but not
>identical) affects the body very differently than (speed meth)

****************************************************************
Well, I personally have know people that have been lost to the "dark" side as I feel with meth. They lose their teeth, they become violent and threatening, they end up in jail from stealing and manufacturing for sale such products. This particular drug seems impossible for them to kick permanently even after lenghty rehabs and/or incarcerations. It is scary to say the least. These people I have know were incredible in their own right. College educated and family people. They become slaves to the drug. Their brains are fried. They sell out and do whatever to get that high that requires more and more to even break even. They die or kill. They abandon their families and forget they have responsibilities and even their own children. It is the saddest I have seen drug wise.


>
>
>A lot of these illegal drugs are made in labs just like
>pharmaceuticals. The difference is FDA approval, societal wide
>acceptance, and the dirtyness factor. Some of these labs are
>very dirty, plus in a capitalist society, which we all live
>in, it is more profitable for the dealer to cut the illegal
>drug with something like baby powder, aspirin or some non
>purified drug they were making but failed to make more
>quantity to sell. Its generally the alien substances in a drug
>that will hurt u, not the drug itself. Well what you do on the
>drug itself might hurt the person as well, but thats a
>different argument.
>
>There is also the factor of the chemist rushing the formula.
>This can be incredibly dangerous. Ex: in the late 80's and
>early 90's in California there was a man who was making
>synthetic heroin. (something similar to oxy cotten, u know
>that synthetic heroin substance that Rush Limbaugh was caught
>taking 30 pills a day of. But he was taking medication right,
>it was prescribed, so he's not a drug user, just got a little
>carried away. =) Yea right, a high is a high no matter where
>you get it from. BY the way Limbaugh has always said that drug
>users should go directly to jail. I wobder if he will turn
>himself in being the moral and principled man he is.
>OK anyway this guy in California made heroin except he rushed
>the cooling process. But just by doing that one thing, it
>turned the heroin into a different substance. IT turned it
>into a drug that induced parkinsons disease. No joke, this is
>very true. It was a small epidemic and about a dozen
>Californians got parkinsons from this substance.

I have not heard of this either and it gives me more impetence to warn of theses drugs. I learned through my schooling years ago that while marijuana is really not that bad...but just leads to the heavier drugs to continue getting the highs that the body I guess gets immune to through marijuana. Well I am not an authority on weed, and I think I would like to have it to feel better or to "chill" from anxiety, I find my predisposed nature is to not use it.

****************************************************************
>
>Heroin in its natural pure form made from morphine is actually
>clean and safe. Very addictive (1 in 2 get addicted but 2 out
>of 3 people trying crack for the first time get addicted, why
>is heroin looked at as the drug has you, while crack is looked
>at as its your fault?) COuld money and staus play a
>role?)Heroin can make a person spend their entire fortune in
>buying it, but it can be taken (once the user has experience
>with it, not an amature user) for years without much damage to
>the body. (keep in mind it has to be done cleanly as well
>clean needles, clean heroin, safe environment, healthy body
>that gets its vitamins ect. The vein part can become a factor
>especially if they are not extra careful in how they take it.
>If you don;t believe me look into research that not biased
>with a government stamp of gateway drug on it. Look towards
>other countries research. And if you want to ask someone, ask
>Keith Richards. Still kicking, still playing music and touring
>in his 60's and he did heroin for YEARS, rumored he still does
>it, but it could be just a rumor.


I believe that Keith Richards, one of my fav, Rolling Stones, shows his choice of drugs on his body and face. I have heard from those that know, that he is drug free now. He is one hell of a talent with or without drugs. Wow.


****************************************************************
>
>If it was regulated, the drug would be clean, the suer would
>have access to the clean paraphernalia and with the money
>saved in incarceration and court fee's that money could be
>spent towards rehab cliniques but not the old style, a
>Minnesota's model approach that uses 7 different disciplines
>to try and help the user, psychology, sociology, religion, and
>exercise to name a few. The Minnesota model has been very
>effective, and with more research into helping people rather
>than throwing them away, the model can only get better as we
>evolve.


I am in favor of the legalization of certain drugs. By taking the oneness out of these certain drugs, we thus take it away from the criminal sources that pray upon the young mostly for their ill gotten gain. If as you rightly mention could be regulated and clean then what would be the problem. It would be one more freedom such as alcohol for personal choice.

****************************************************************

>
>ok Just one more thing, When you said something like younger
>people need to grow up and stop doing illegal substances or
>something like that. Well what one has to consider about laws
>and rules of society is that they are all social
>constructions.

Yes and no to the above in my opinion. I think you got what I was saying about that...


***************************************************************

>
>Having sex with a 14 year old boy is illegal for a 40-50 year
>old man in todays American society. (our culture) But if you
>asked Plato, Aristotle, or Socrates (some of our philosophers
>that we hold dear to. They would see nothing wrong with sex
>with a 14 year old boy. They would even introduce you to their
>boys whom they have sex with. They would say however that it
>is not right for them to be in love with their boy toys. It
>was acceptable for the boy to be in love with the older man
>because he was in a mentor position, a position that he looked
>up to (literally). BUt the Greeks believe that it was immoral
>for the older man to be in love with the boy.


Well we are reaching into another lenghty subject here. The Bible, which I am reading with understanding finally, and I recommend this to you, even though my Jewishness might lose another son, is so contradictory old and new testamentwise, I feel. Incest obviously was the norm poligamy too. Murder was understood and necessary. Why?
****************************************************************
>
>The point is rules and laws are important for a society to
>function, especially these huge societies we have created. The
>world has never known a population this size. To not have
>rules and laws would be a disaster. But all those rules are
>social constructions and do not all hold true or work
>indefinately.


Rumor is that we are going to live to at least 100 years. Wow how will we have health care, and social security etc...

>
>Sodomy - not just anal sex but includes and type of sex that
>is not "normal" What is normal what is usual. Well when they
>made the laws it turned out that doggystyle, oral sex, anal
>sex, gay sex, and just about anything not missionary style was
>not normal therfore making those all illegal under the sodomy
>laws. Today,
>you can't buy a porno without anal, oral, or some form of
>positions they are set in that is illegal under this sodomy
>law.
>Thank goodness believe it or not, some sodomy laws were still
>in affect in some states until recently. The supreme court
>struck down on them as not being constitutional.
>
>The point is, just because its a rule or law, doesn't make it
>golden. We make mistakes, and we are constantly evolving and
>changing as a species and as a culture.


Excellent point, son.


>
>But I do appreciate the response and like I said I don;t
>necessarily disagree with you, just about a few things.
>
>

I love reading your thoughts. I agree with alot of what you say, and admire your knowledge and your willingness now to exchange ideas to help all of us learn and grow. That is what it is all about. Keep on keeping on my lovely son.

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Message #2004 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
Larry Levy  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
4/15/07, 9:43am
graphic
Hi, Saundra!

Great to see you on here again. I've missed you.

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" I lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my help.", Psalm 121
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Message #2006 of 2187  *NEW*
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Larry Levy
saundrabeach  
Re: Study: Alcohol, Tobacco Worse Than Drugs
4/15/07, 5:16pm
graphic
>Hi, Saundra!
>
>Great to see you on here again. I've missed you.

Howdy Larry...I have missed you too! Computers went bust at the same time...eek! Back in business Didn't realize how much I love the net. Wonder if Mercury was in retrograde? They say things break during that period. Glad I was still under warranty. lol

Have you noticed that after you purchase a new computer, walk out of the shop, they are superceded before you get to the car?

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TREAT OTHERS LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED WELCOME EACH NEW DAY! Just When Your Children Are Fit To Live With, They Are Living With Someone Else!
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