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Message #2020 of 2187  *NEW*
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Chris Reed  
Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/3/07, 10:23am (Last Edited: 5/3/07, 1:57pm)
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Here a story that is certainly open for discussion:

A couple have been convicted and will receive automatic life sentences for forcing a vegan diet of soy milk and apple juice on their baby, who died at six weeks weighing less than four pounds.

http://wsbradio.com/news/050207vegan.html

Would be interested to hear your takes on this, especially from the fellow parents and from my vegan friends.

My thought is as absolutely deplorable as these parentsí actions were, the life sentence seems a bit harsh. To me, a life sentence ó and the death penalty for that matter ó should be reserved for those who maliciously wanted to kill another human being.

I donít get a sense that this couple wanted their baby to die. In their eyes, perverted as they may be, they thought they were giving their child a healthy diet to expand their years, only to find out they limited their childís life to days. Thatís neglect. Thatís manslaughter. Itís moronic, but it falls short of malicious murder in my eyes.

As an omnivore, I tolerate veganism and the animal rights movement in the same way I tolerate other religions and cultures: I donít care what views you have, as long as you donít force them down my throat. Iím all fine and dandy if you donít want that burger, but donít try to make the Double Double and Big Mac illegal for the rest of us.

And you certainly should not force your views upon your newborn baby if it will mean their death. Certainly the argument could be made that at some point, someone had to have told these two that what they were doing could kill their child. That a parent should certainly notice when their newborn weighs less. But I find it hard to believe that at some point, these two said to themselves that they want their child dead because meat is murder.

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Message #2021 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach  
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/3/07, 10:46am (Last Edited: 5/3/07, 10:51am)
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"And you certainly should force your views upon your newborn baby if it will mean their death. "


Happen to be reading the board at the same time Chris.

I think you meant to say "And you certainly SHOULD NOT"... (just a typo)

Interestingly enough, I have had this as a pet peeve for years. I used to argue with acquaintances that were "Vegans" by choice shall we say as they became this way as either teenagers or adults. Which is their right.

My argument was that they were raised with meat for protein and muscle growth etc. then made their choice after they were grown.

Babies need such special care to grow each day. How could these parents you refer to ignore the child's weight loss and non thriving state?

I cannot give an opinion about their sentences. I do not know if they themselves were in need of education or were in fact in a cult like group that encouraged such behavior and lack of care for their child.

All I know is one of God's precious babies is dead. These situations make me scream and wonder WHY! So many peoplke are yearning to become parents, why do the people have children that are not prepared to parent properly? Presumably that this was the case here. Had to be some type of neglect.

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Message #2022 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed  
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/3/07, 10:47am (Last Edited: 5/3/07, 10:53am)
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Hi Chris:

Nice to see ya around these parts...

Now, to your point. I agree with you on the surface, but it doesn't appear to me that their vegan lifestyle had much to do with this conviction.

There are a number of formula companies that sell soy-based formula for babies, Nestle included (we use the non-soy version of Good Start). In fact, my good friend who is a higher up at Nestle for the Good Start product has made some mention of the fact that Orthodox Jews use this soy-based product exclusively because some elements of standard formula are considered "unkosher" (I may have the facts screwed up here, but the premise is correct).

Point: we don't hear about an influx of Orthodox Jewish babies dying because they were fed a vegan diet. Why? Because these babies gain weight just like any other baby, provided they are fed correctly (e.g., at the most basic level, when they are crying and won't stop until they are eating).

My guess is that this was a full term baby who was born between 6-9 pounds. Now, after four months, I am hardly an expert, but I can say with certainty that AJ -- born at 7 pounds+ -- if he lost half of his body weight, we would have noticed... and we would have done something about it.

This has all the appearances of extreme child neglect. It does not have the appearance that the vegan diet had anything to do with this baby's death. I hope to see some vegan response on this issue to confirm what I am saying here.

There are hundreds of thousands of babies, I am sure, that are fed a vegan diet and do just fine.

Life sentences sound harsh here, however, if there is remorse and if there is no evidence that this was intentional.

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Message #2026 of 2187  *NEW*
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Robert Jones  
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/3/07, 11:15pm
That (the baby's death) is so horrible!

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Message #2032 of 2187  *NEW*
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Joanna
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/7/07, 10:08am
Wow, A life sentance.... It seems to me that being somehow responsible for your child's death, especially unintentionally, would be a life sentance of the 'pure mental anguish' kind anyway. Should my child die I don't suppose where my body was for the rest of my days, my mind would be in such utter dispair.

That being said, we are vegetarians, and are raising our kids as vegetarians. When they hit six they may choose for themselves that they want to eat. Not that I make meat in my home, but they may have it when they eat elsewhere. Might I add, without one word from me. We all make choices in life- mine has been to be vegetarian for 21 years. My kids make their own choices. I am well versed as a vegetarian and sometimes vegan, and I doubt seriously a well rounded vegan diet would kill a child. There must have been other factors. Perhaps the child was FTT (Failure to Thrive)or had another ailment.

Interesting topic. Thanks.
-Joanna

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Message #2033 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach  
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/7/07, 10:34am
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Hi Joanna, nice to hear another view on RRBBS.

My thoughts at first were wow, a life sentence. We parents have a life sentence so to speak when we opt to parent in the first place, if you think about it.

The fact that this child died at 6 weeks is curious, and might have fallen into the SIDS category.

Your idea of "failure to thrive" is germain no doubt. Such weight loss should have been noticed by the parents. There must have been other signs like constant crying.

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Message #2035 of 2187  *NEW*
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Joanna
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/7/07, 6:31pm
Hello Saundra-this story has had me thinking most of the day. Here is what is running through my head: If this couple gets prosecuted for following their beliefs because their child grew ill (and subsequently died) as a result... then it opens a door for prosecuting parents for the foods they choose to feed their kids. Can we then begin to remove obese children from their homes and prosecute the parents? I do think the vegan parents must have been a bit...pardon me, but dumb! for not seeing signs their child was struggling for life, but what about the idiocy of many, many parents that blindly feed there kids Big Whopper Macs and Lunchables? What about the slow death THOSE kids face? Look at childhood obesity, childhood diabetes and the vast range of diseases we are seeing in record numbers in our kids. Is that a prosecutable offense as well? Is McDonald's liable- can we put "death by ingestion of junk food" on the death certificate of kids that die from juvenile diabetes and the like?
Thanks for letting me open the lid to my brain. It doesn't see much sunlight these days (two small kids!) and when it does it likes to run free a bit.
Thoughts?

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Message #2036 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach  
Re: Vegitarians Get Life in Prison
5/7/07, 9:30pm (Last Edited: 5/7/07, 10:55pm)
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Good and well thought comments Joanna.

Having said that, as to your thought about removing obese children from their parents...They DO. This is done after warnings. These parents do not want to deprive their children they think. It is hard to say no, I admit. I had a lot of practice with my four.

I believe part of the problem lies within the public school district. For whatever reason the schools have taken physical education classes out of their curriculum. I remember we had mandatory P.E. daily with a mandatory shower after class as well all up to and including college. Sometimes it was difficult to get our necessary courses with gym included. That was too bad, it was mandatory. We used to have to run track every day, This broke up the day and really made us sweat.

My priority has always been children since I can remember. I would have made better choices of what I fed my boys if I had it to do over. They ate well, but too much junk food I think.

I think maybe even the Bible prefers fruit and plants for us.

Sugar was actually a poison to the early natives and killed many of them as written about in the book "Sugar Blues" Written by Gloria Swanson's husband William Duffy/
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Trivia: Gloria Swanson of SUNSET BOULEVARD fame, etc. was said that she went ballistic if someone used it around her. She claimed that America lost the Vietnam War because of sugar. Her last husband, William Duffy, wrote a book called, "Sugar Blues." It is the history of sugar and contains some personal insightful confrontations with sugar, experienced by the author. Thanks for Findadeath.com friend RM for that tidbit.

I remember reading a story about someone who hated her guts, sending her a baby casket filled to the rim with sugar. That took a lot of thought. NOT!

This was sent in by Findadeath.com friend Kevin Kusinitz. Thanks Kevin! Another piece of trivia for your files.

"Sugar Blues," the book by Gloria Swanson's husband, was a favorite book of John Lennon's. Apparently, he'd hand out copies of the book the way Henry Ford did "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Lennon, like Gloria, was sure that sugar was the curse of the world. Of course, Lennon chain-smoked moccasin-like French cigarettes and downed about 20 cups of espresso a day. Real health nut, that Lennon.

Do you find you stay slimmer with your way of eating?

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