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Message #2143 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed  
Talk about excessive force
9/18/07, 11:21pm (Last Edited: 9/19/07, 9:57pm)
graphic


I cannot believe this act. Yes, the kid was nagging Kerry and aledgedly resisting arrest. But from what I see, he was trying to get a politician to answer some questions and in no way was told why he was being taken away. His actions after being grabbed to be ejected may have been a cause to have him ejected from the room, but in no way, NO WAY! was his actions justifiable to be tasered. The police officers were acting almost out of vengeance. That is unacceptable, and definitely not reasonable under the circumstances.

And then Kerry stated it ws an imprtant question and went on with his speech???????

How about, hey police, STOP THAT!!!!

If I was up there, I would have told the cops to stop, release the young individual and if anything, allow him to finish his point or place him in handcuffs and escort him out. He did not move close to kerry or even shift his position while speaking to him. There was no cause for a threat.

This was another escape for a politician to get out of asking a hard question. This guy wanted to be our president, and yet he didn't even stand up for one of its citizens receiving brutal force thrust upon him with no justifiable reason to do so.

Even though I think Bush has helped destroy this country, I'm glad Kerry lost.

And as far as the police go, this is just one more incident that shows their power is far too great. We need them, that is to go without saying. But we also need to respect them.

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Message #2144 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Robert Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 2:47am (Last Edited: 9/19/07, 2:57am)
graphic
>
>
>
>
>
>I cannot believe this act. Yes, the kid was nagging Kerry and
>aledgedly resisting arrest. But from what I see, he was trying
>to get a politician to answer some questions and in no way was
>told why he was being taken away. His actions after being
>grabbed to be ejected may have been a cause to have him
>ejected from the room, but in no way, NO WAY! was his actions
>justifiable to be tasered. The police officers were acting
>almost out of vengeance. That is unacceptable, and definitely
>not reasonable under the circumstances.


>Michael, I love what you have to say, so proud, I would have said the same.

I often wonder "what happened to free speech"

It seems we live in a world whereby we are afraid to "speak up" for what is right, lest we offend others, due to "some warped perception" of what is "politically correct".

As you know I do not believe in offending others, simply due to their racial make up, their political affiliation, their "way of life", etc., I may not necessarily agree with "the way of life", but "It is none of my business".

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you that this individual had every right to Heckle, and express his disagreement., and unless he presented a threat to anyone , he should have been allowed to "continue on".

I am sad this happened in "my adopted country", I did not come here to obtain freedom, I left a free country, I came here to look for "financial advantage", I found that, however, this kind of reaction does not bode well for future similar situations.

If "authorities" can "shut people up", and we "forget about it" tomorrow, because we are more interested in what Brit. spears is wearing or what P. Hilton is doing, then the IGNORANT masses will bring us all down.


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Message #2147 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 10:31am (Last Edited: 9/19/07, 10:41am)
graphic
I think there is much more here than the tape shows. There are cops surrounding this kid as he is speaking, and I am not so sure that they were already there (i.e., they might be up there BECAUSE of this guy). There is a time and place for announcing opinions, and it wasn't this event. I am presuming, also, that the university paid a lot of money to have Kerry speak.

It was open to questions... not a confrontation.

So, he is asked to leave. And, he obviously doesn't leave obligingly. And, he is getting pulled out and what the video clearly shows is that he isn't ALLEGEDLY resisting. He is classically resisting. One can put their hands in the air and act like they are not, but watch his hands before they go up.

Then, we have the police telling him to stop resisting or he will get tazed. The warning is clear because before he does get tazed, he says "Don't Taze me, Bro."

We also have a number of people in the crowd cheering his being escorted out, which leads me to believe that there is more to this story. Perhaps, this is a common troll who attends these kind of events often to get attention for himself?

Moral: if you are being escorted out of something by police, follow their instructions, or you assume the risk of getting tazed, bruised, whatever.

If his rights were violated, there are civil remedies.

I don't see that this guy's rights were violated. His "questions" got out there... they were deemed inappropriate (particularly, I think I heard somewhere that the Skull and Bones Society question had been asked as a joke on a number of occasions before this guy, so it might be that this is the reason the police were there to stop the silliness).

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Message #2148 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Robert Jones  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 5:47pm
Thank You Rob, I was wanting to comment but felt it inappropriate for me to do so.

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Message #2149 of 2187  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 9:38pm
graphic
>Thank You Rob, I was wanting to comment but felt it
>inappropriate for me to do so.

Never inappropriate, but I get ya (and my pleasure).

There have definitely been moments of excessive force used by police in the past, and yes -- it still happens on occasion, but the bottom line is that it is soooo extremely easy to avoid any kind of force at all by simply following basic instructions.

Our society has such a major problem with authority and this is the primary root of the problem, as far as I am concerned.

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #2150 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 10:12pm
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As I suspected, there is more to the story:

This was not Meyer's first escapade as a provocateur, but it may be his most physically punishing. As a freshman his weekly columns for the Alligator, the campus newspaper, regularly prompted debate. "He would take an idea such as a fundraiser for cancer research, and would bash the way the whole event would go down," wrote Meyer's friend Brandon Crone in an e-mail, noting that some of Meyer's articles were rejected for publication because of their incendiary material.

Some have speculated that his penchant for attention (his e-mail handle is "famouswriterman") led him to stage the outburst to draw traffic to his Web site, http://www.theandrewmeyer.com, a mishmash of political commentary, sketch comedy and filmed practical jokes. On Meyer's Facebook wall, his friends' good wishes are half-horrified, half-admiring.

"Meyer, you are a genius," writes one fan. "Just don't go on Larry King yet wait till you get millions first."

Asked about speculation that Meyer staged the confrontation, university spokesman Steve Orlando said in an interview that someone in the Office of Student Affairs told him Meyer brought his own video camera to the forum, handing it to a friend before rising to ask his question.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/articl
e/2007/09/18/AR2007091802115.html

--------------------------------------------------------
"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #2151 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Mike Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/19/07, 11:41pm
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Well, yes I believe he was resisting arrest, but he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, so he allegedly was resisting arrest.

Of course there is background to anything a person does, but that still doesn't change that he was given a type of treatment that should not be tolerated.

In a perfect world, we should just listen to the authority and do what were told because that authority would never over step its bounds. But thats the problem. The authority always oversteps its bounds. Whether it is the government doing unconstitutional wiretapping, bringing our country into an unjust war or infringing on our rights to liberty, or our local law enforcements abuse of power, there are numerous situations that cause people to view these authority figures with fear.

whether most people agree with me or not. We are all criminals. We all have at some time or do constantly, break the law. Whether its speeding, jaywalking, downloading illegally off the internet, giving a alcoholoc beverage to a person that is 20 and below, buying a prostitute, slander, sodomy ( oral sex or anal but struck unconstitutional by the supreme court. There are still many in jail for when the laws were in force), try an illegal drug, give a family member one of your prescription drugs because it will help them. Whatever the law we broke, we all have done something that if we had gotten caught, we would be in trouble.

The point about this is that there are many laws and reasons why people are affraid of these authority figures. Respect is lacking greatly.

I use to be ignorant and said that there is no need for people like the police, but I know now that was childish. But I still believe that they have too much power, and the fact our legislators make laws to police our personal lives (the ones that say what a person can do to themselves, not others) makes peope trust authority even less.

Yes this kid was asking questions that were most likely said to cause a ruckus, but its suposedly a free country. In a public forum, he had the ability to ask for the most part, what ever he wanted. If he jumped to the front of the line, well he cheated, and you can't learn how to cheat any better than the political process we live amongst. The police were there for the most part to ensure there was not a threat to Kerry, and preserve the peace. By them stepping in, they created a situation in which they were there to prevent.

Its easy to say it, since we will never know, but I feel the kid would of went on his way as soon as Kerry would not of been able to answer his questions well. The kid would have felt victorious that he put Kerry on the spot and he, a college student was able to do it. I think that was his intentions. He was not a threat. He only became one when he got on a high horse for his "constitutional rights" that were being taken away.

His actions when being taken away were not acceptable. But neither were the officers. There were 4 cops there. One particularly big one. 4 cops with one kid (not on PCP). There are many tricks cops are taught in immobilizing their suspects. A tazer was unnecessary and excessive.

As far as the conspiracy to have his friend video tape the event. He was asking a political candidate that almost won the presidency of the US some scandalous questions. Of course he wanted it taped so he could put it on youtube and his website. I don't believe that he wanted to get put in jail, or cause a scene like the one that happened.

Like the first amendment says, we all have a right to speak. (the freedom of that speech has been limited, but his questions did not go beyond those bonds)
Not everyone has to agree with one another.
I don't think any of us have that much of a disagreement. I think the only thing we disagree on is the excessive force.

Well and maybe others may not think they are a criminal, but thats only because you were never caught. =)

Love the dialog, and its nice to get away from my studies and write about something more fun.

Here's a video for Florida state that would help with the prosecution of this kid. You can see he's not in cuffs when they tazed him which would get them in trouble if he was. And you can see him resisting arrest even more. But I still believe, a tazer was not necessary and they should of dragged him out of there and slapped cuffs on him with one of their many techniques they learned at the acadamy

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Message #2152 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 10:24am (Last Edited: 9/20/07, 12:24pm)
graphic
Michael...Everyone loves to bash the police and lawyers too matter if fact...BUT..who do they call at the first moment of trouble...hummm right.

Having said that...I really like your position in this matter as it mirrors mine. I really haven't a clue how to remedy this, do you?

Perhaps with your future possible sights on a political career, we might see someone heckling you...lol Trust me on this, we won't need the police..momma lion will shut THEM up.

Freedom of speech..for some...for the ethnic "non-majority" for the oppressed and let's not forget "OJ" I do not feel free. Make no mistake my country is the best country in the world to live. I truly believe that.

I feel we sometimes "overdance" to appease minorities thus struggling to be "PC" when in reality it seems to take away our freedoms, certainly of speech. We must continue dialogue both positive and negative to insure our freedoms.

I see a completely different world than I the way I was raised. As exciting as it is, it causes concerns as to your future and others.

Kerry had the right to speak and was "invited" Keyword here to speak. The heckler has a right to speak, but perhaps he should have used a more appropriate method.

I hate violence of any kind, therefore was opposed to the way in which this matter was handled. I respect police, but why are they always there when I am speeding?

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Message #2154 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
saundrabeach  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 10:31am
graphic
"Rob quoted: This was not Meyer's first escapade as a provocateur, but it may be his most physically punishing. As a freshman his weekly columns for the Alligator, the campus newspaper, regularly prompted debate. "He would take an idea such as a fundraiser for cancer research, and would bash the way the whole event would go down," wrote Meyer's friend Brandon Crone in an e-mail, noting that some of Meyer's articles were rejected for publication because of their incendiary material."

Surprised by this. Is this admissable? His actions that day should be the forefront of the matter, not previous records.

Maybe this young man will put his mouth into action by continuing his education and then pursuing a career that can inact change for the common good honoring his verbose beliefs.

He wasn't armed, tasers seem over the top for the conditions. If your son grows up to be a delightful orater with a strong belief system would you feel it justified for him to be tasered just for "spouting" off? inappropriate medium or not?

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TREAT OTHERS LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED WELCOME EACH NEW DAY! Just When Your Children Are Fit To Live With, They Are Living With Someone Else!
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Message #2156 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Marie Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 11:18am (Last Edited: 9/20/07, 11:26am)
graphic
>There is a time and place for announcing opinions, and it wasn't this event.

It amazes me, sometimes, how alike we are.

I saw the footage at my parents house, and at first, I thought it was awful how he was being tasered and was being pinned down by so many authorities. But, as the footage went on, I saw that he was resisting. The more you resist, the more they'll take you down.

I am thankful that I live in a country that practices "free speech". But there is a time and place to practice such freedom.

I guess I got you warped!

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Message #2157 of 2187  *NEW*
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Marie Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 1:00pm
graphic
>It amazes me, sometimes, how alike we are.

Well, that's just 'cause we both have common sense.... lol.

>I saw the footage at my parents house, and at first, I thought
>it was awful how he was being tasered and was being pinned
>down by so many authorities. But, as the footage went on, I
>saw that he was resisting. The more you resist, the more
>they'll take you down.

Exactly. The key is for families to put more focus on teaching kids to respect authority and not resist it. We do not live in a fascist society that prevents speech, but when you are an idiot seeking attention for yourself, you assume the risk of the consequences.

>I am thankful that I live in a country that practices "free
>speech". But there is a time and place to practice such
>freedom.

Exactly. Take this crazed group of religious zealots attending and picketing funerals of homosexuals holding "God Hates Fags" signs or those of our soldiers holding "Thank God for Dead Soldiers" signs at military funerals.

The conservative part in me says that this should be illegal.

>I guess I got you warped!

Oh boy. I know one person who will read this who will eat this one up! LOL... yes, indeed. I am under your spell.

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #2158 of 2187  *NEW*
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Mike Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 1:18pm
graphic
>Well, yes I believe he was resisting arrest, but he is
>innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, so he
>allegedly was resisting arrest.

Total law school answer. There is our presumption of innoncence, and then there is basic common sense. It isn't an allegation when there is VIDEO.

We have audio tapes of OJ breaking into the hotel room and raising hell. Sure, he is presumed innocent under the law, but then there is the reality that he did it.

One can be found innocent LEGALLY, but that doesn't change a reality -- especially when it is on film.

>Of course there is background to anything a person does, but
>that still doesn't change that he was given a type of
>treatment that should not be tolerated.

I disagree. He was warned. He was told he would be tazed. He failed to stop his resistance. He was making the arrest difficult, so officers were completely in the right to make things EASIER for them to take him down... I have no problems with the officers' use of force here. No batons. No beating down. Instead of a beat down, they electrified his ass, and he knew it was coming, and he did nothing to change the officers' ultimate decision.

>In a perfect world, we should just listen to the authority and
>do what were told because that authority would never over step
>its bounds. But thats the problem. The authority always
>oversteps its bounds. Whether it is the government doing
>unconstitutional wiretapping, bringing our country into an
>unjust war or infringing on our rights to liberty, or our
>local law enforcements abuse of power, there are numerous
>situations that cause people to view these authority figures
>with fear.

This is a problem with your thinking. "THe authority always oversteps its bounds." ALWAYS?!?!?!?!?! Too many of our children are being taught this way of thinking, and this is why we have people resisting all authority, no matter what it is (INCLUDING parental authority).

>I use to be ignorant and said that there is no need for people
>like the police, but I know now that was childish. But I still
>believe that they have too much power, and the fact our
>legislators make laws to police our personal lives (the ones
>that say what a person can do to themselves, not others) makes
>peope trust authority even less.

What is your solution, here? Should the police have continued to politely ask this guy to leave the premises? They were doing just that, and he refused. Do they continue just asking politely? Just what power do you propose taking away from our police that they have "too much" of?

>His actions when being taken away were not acceptable. But
>neither were the officers. There were 4 cops there. One
>particularly big one. 4 cops with one kid (not on PCP). There
>are many tricks cops are taught in immobilizing their
>suspects. A tazer was unnecessary and excessive.

What, in your opinion, would have been necessary and not excessive? I am curious.

>Like the first amendment says, we all have a right to speak.
>(the freedom of that speech has been limited, but his
>questions did not go beyond those bonds)
>Not everyone has to agree with one another.
>I don't think any of us have that much of a disagreement. I
>think the only thing we disagree on is the excessive force.

Wait til next year where you'll cover thie one. The First Amendment controls us from governmental intrusion on our free speech. It does not prevent a private university like the University of Florida from restricting the free exercise of free speech.

Would you like a world, for instance, when I could be prevented by law from deleting a post here that I deemed offensive? This is my board. My private board. Fortunately, the first amendment does not affect my ability to curtail the free speech of others... and that is a GOOD thing.

Having Kerry speak at an event at a university is a privilege for the students. It is not a right. The university pays the money. The university does this to further education in our political process. When an idiot like this guy goes out of his way to hurt that motivation, I think he got off lightly.

Now, this asswipe is most certainly going to sue because of the press. I hope he gets countersued by the university for the cost of bringing Kerry to the school.

>Love the dialog, and its nice to get away from my studies and
>write about something more fun.

This will continue to be interesting for you. I think I told you that while in law school and while watching the news, films, tv shows, etc., you suddenly realize that it seems like almost everything has some relation to law.

I remember when I was in the midst of taking the bar. I only hung out with one good friend of mine, and we made a pact to not talk law or about the exam at the end of each day of testing.

So, that first night, we agree to get a pay for view movie. It was the one with Dustin Hoffman... I think called "OutBreak..." and we're trying to enjoy ourselves when suddenly there is this big constitutional issue as to whether it is legal to quarantine an entire city. Ugh. We couldn't get away from it.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #2159 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Robert Jones  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 1:58pm
LOL!!! Rob, do I owe you a retainer fee for arguing this one? LOL

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Message #2161 of 2187  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
Rob Reed  
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 2:02pm
graphic
>LOL!!! Rob, do I owe you a retainer fee for arguing this one?
> LOL
>

LOL, no... in thinking about it, though, my first amendment argument could be wrong because the University of Florida IS a state sponsored university (I think).

Mikey may have to school me on this one when he covers Con Law next year.

I am hoping he will forget all about this by then.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #2162 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
BestLight
Re: Talk about excessive force
9/20/07, 2:30pm
>Exactly. The key is for families to put more focus on
>teaching kids to respect authority and not resist it. We do
>not live in a fascist society that prevents speech, but when
>you are an idiot seeking attention for yourself, you assume
>the risk of the consequences.

I kind of agree. I agree with respecting authority, and with teaching that to our kids. But authorities are not infallible. Authority figures -- other parents, teachers, police officers, legislators, judges, heck, even Hubby and I -- we NEED to be challenged at times.

This morning while getting ready for the carpool, I told Tessa to sit there and eat her breakfast quickly (the ride was due any minute). Then I saw the contents of her backpack dumped all over and I overreacted and told her sternly to get her things together.

Caught between two competing orders, she got frustrated and challenged me: "Mom! It's confusing! You told me to eat, and now you're yelling at me to pick up my stuff!"

She did the right thing in confronting me (and I admit I wanted to tase her -- kidding). I calmed down and told her she was right.

If my children ever have another adult tell them to do something that's not in line with what they know is right, I want them to be empowered to stand up for themselves, respectfully.

I also want to teach them to respect authority. A vast majority of the time, that respect is warranted.

The black and whites are easy. The grays are hard to teach.

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