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Message #867 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed  
The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/6/04, 12:58pm (Last Edited: 7/26/05, 4:38pm)
graphic
I have been reading a lot of messages in the conservative blogosphere where a credible effort is brewing, attempting to prove that the gay marriage issue did not have a lot to do with Bush winning the election.

Personally, I believe that it played a HUGE role.

On February 15, 2000, then Governor Bush had this exchange in the South Carolina Republican candidate debates with questioner Larry King:

BUSH: I'm going to appoint conservative people in the Cabinet. It's none of my business what somebody's -- now when somebody makes it my business, like on gay marriage, I'm going to stand up and say I don't support gay marriage. I support marriage between men and women.

KING: So if a state were voting on gay marriage, you would suggest to that state not to approve it?

BUSH: The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into.

KING: You just did. You have an opinion.

I believe that President Bush's advisers saw the value in galvanizing the conservative, Christian base of the Republican Party by putting a lot of focus on this issue. No more "let the states do what they want" attitude. Instead, Bush came out in support of a FEDERAL ban... with specific words in the CONSTITUTION. A far cry from let the states "do what they want."

So, this morning, I decided to do some internet research on the subject. Look at the states that had the gay marriage issue on the ballot. Would it confirm or deny my suspicions that the gay marriage ballot measures were a part of the successful, Republican strategy?

The following states had the gay marriage issue on their ballots:
Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah.

The "Swing" States

Then, I searched for a formal list of alleged "swing states." I decided to use any list that I could find on a notoriously conservative Republican site. I found this one:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1091436/po
sts

Includes: Oregon, Arkansas, Michigan, and YES, Ohio among the swing states that had a gay marriage issue on their ballots.

It also includes Missouri, which is relevant in this discussion a bit later.

Election 2000 vs. Election 2004

Then, I looked at the state results for those states where the gay marriage issue was on the ballot, including alleged "non-swing states."

Swing States:

OREGON: 52-48 (Kerry)
2000: 47-47 (Tie)

MICHIGAN: 51-48 (Kerry)
2000: 51-47 (Gore)

OHIO: 51-49 (Bush)
2000: 50-36 (Bush)

ARKANSAS: 54-45 (Bush)
2000: 51-45 (Bush)

"Non-Swing" States:

MISSISSIPPI: 60-40 (Bush)
2000: 57-42 (Bush)

MONTANA: 59-39 (Bush)
2000: 58-34 (Bush)

NORTH DAKOTA: 63-36 (Bush)
2000: 61-33 (Bush)

UTAH: 71-27 (Bush)
2000: 67-26 (Bush)

GEORGIA: 58-41 (Bush)
2000: 55-43 (Bush)

KENTUCKY: 60-40 (Bush)
2000: 57-41 (Bush)

OKLAHOMA: 66-34 (Bush)
2000: 60-38 (Bush)

source: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results and http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004

Four swing states were included out of the eleven states where gay marriage was on the ballot. I don't believe that this was an accident.

Missouri and Louisiana

Missouri was also listed as a swing state on freerepublic.com. In August of this year, there was a statewide vote for a Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. It passed a resounding 71%-29%.

I believe that this and a similarly successful ban in Louisiana, earlier this year were used as a barometer for the Republican party. Both Missouri and Louisiana allowed the RNC to see just how successful gay marriage ban measures would likely be.

The election results in Missouri for the President were 54%-46% in favor of Bush. In 2000, Bush also won... with a margin of 51%-47%. In 2004, he picked up 3%.

Missouri's referendum was the first opportunity for voters anywhere in the country to take a stand on the issue since Massachusetts began allowing same-sex couples to marry in May. More surprising than the margin of passage, which had been predicted by opinion polls, was the turnout of about 1.5 million voters, or 400,000 more than expected for a primary election.

Seth Kilbourn, the Human Rights Campaign's national field director, said he believed that most of the additional voters were opponents of gay marriage who went to the polls solely because of the issue. "We were out-organized by the competition, which was able to do a lot of organizing with very little resources. They activated the churches in a way that was very successful," Kilbourn said.

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3886
1-2004Aug4.html

Similarly, Bush also made gains in Louisiana in 2004. Bush won Louisiana 57%-42%, compared to 53%-45% in 2000.

What were the Results of the Gay Marriage Ban Vote in the Eleven states?

The closest race came in Oregon, where gay rights groups concentrated much of their effort and money and thought they had the best chance of winning. Opponents of the amendment raised about $2.8 million, enough to run TV and radio ads in the Beaver State and outspend pro-amendment forces, according to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

Yet, in the end, the amendment passed by a margin of 57 percent to 43 percent.

In the remaining states, the amendments passed with 60 percent of the vote or more, with the margin at a whopping 86 percent in Mississippi.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/02/ballot.sa
mesex.marriage

What this shows is that the gay marriage ban issue was used as a way to keep notoriously conservative, Republican states like Utah, Mississippi, and Kentucky under the Christian, conservative blanket.

It was a way to try and skew an expectedly liberal state like Oregon in a conservative direction.

It also shows a specific attempt to tilt important swing states (including the Granddaddy of the 2004 election, Ohio) in a conservative direction.

It worked.

What About Florida?

But, I was still left to wonder if the RNC really "conspired" to skew the election with the gay marriage issue, why didn't they look to the most obvious state of them all -- Florida?

A March, 2004 Miami Herald article/poll gave me my answer:

While most Florida voters don't approve of marriage for gay and lesbian couples, a majority support civil unions that would give same-sex couples the legal rights of married couples, according to a new poll.

Voters are also uncomfortable with a proposed federal constitutional amendment prohibiting marriage for gays, with only 41 percent of those polled saying they would support President Bush's push to ban same-sex marriages.

A plurality of voters say the regulation of marriage should be left to states, according to a Herald/St. Petersburg Times poll of 800 registered voters in Florida. Eleven percent of voters are undecided on the constitutional amendment question.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8131741.htm?1c

Clearly, because of the volatility of Florida in the 2000 election, I believe that the RNC did not want to make waves in this regard...

In fact, I would go so far to say that this Miami Herald poll is the best evidence that the gay marriage issue was a pivotal RNC strategy.

What does it all mean?

With all of the failures of the Bush Administration (i.e., largest debt in our country's history, largest deficit, highest loss of jobs in decades, the WMD search in Iraq) and President Bush's failure to acknowledge any mistakes (other than his selection of appointees who ended up attacking his administration), I think the tide of this country was directing towards a certain Bush loss.

Yet, a look at the Bush results in the states in which the gay marriage ban was included on the ballot shows that Bush GAINED votes in each of those states.

It is because of this that I believe that the RNC strategy team was absolutely brilliant in including Ohio among those states deciding this "moral" issue. The religious right came out in droves and proved to be the exclamation point at the end of a very brilliantly strategized election plan.

It is worthy of note that the Democrats made the most siginificant gains, of all the swing states, in Ohio -- a total of 13%.

Notwithstanding, Kerry still lost Ohio. I believe that the Democrats 13% gain in Ohio would have been much higher were it not for the gay marriage ballot measure. Ohio voters overwhelmingly supported the ban on gay marriage... 62%-38%.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/ball
ot.measures

In the end, because Ohio ultimately decided the election, so, too, did those Ohio voters who came out in favor of a gay marriage ban and, presumably, George Bush.

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #868 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Robert Jones  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/6/04, 3:44pm
Personally the issue did not cross my mind during the voting process. It is not an issue that I am passionate about. I do not have problem with gay marriage and could care less. I think marriage is a promise made between two people, a commitment. Personally, if I exchange that vow it will be with someone of the female gender but if two people of the same gender want to make those promises to each other then that should be their business, not mine and not my goverment's.

I am sure that there are many more people who have a different opinion and are more passionate about the issue than I. Perhaps it did have a significant impact on the election. I am just glad it is all over and ready for it all to just go away.

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Message #872 of 2187  *NEW*
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Robert Jones
murphy brown  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/6/04, 8:26pm
graphic
Personally, if I exchange that vow it will be
>with someone of the female gender but if two people of the
>same gender want to make those promises to each other then
>that should be their business, not mine and not my
>goverment's.
>
I totally agree.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave
safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, totally worn out, shouting..Holy Shit!!
What a Ride!!"
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Message #874 of 2187  *NEW*
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murphy brown
vicki  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/7/04, 5:57am
graphic
>Personally, if I exchange that vow it will be
>>with someone of the female gender but if two people of the
>>same gender want to make those promises to each other then
>>that should be their business, not mine and not my
>>goverment's.
>>
>I totally agree.

Yes, we have many bigger problems to worry about than this.

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Message #875 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Dr. Rub
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/7/04, 6:08am (Last Edited: 11/7/04, 6:09am)
I don't agree with gay marriage. I believe God intended marriage to be for a man & a woman. However, who am I to stop gay marriage? I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I think it's immoral. I think it is disgusting. That being said though, if 2 homosexuals want to marry each other, I say let them do it as long as our laws protect such an act. I personally don't approve of gay marriage, but I agree with Vickie. We have more important things to worry about & W. is going to get it done. Long live George W. Bush!

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"Losers always whine about giving their best. Winners get to go home & ---- the prom queen." (Sean Connery)
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Message #879 of 2187  *NEW*
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vicki
Rob Reed  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/7/04, 10:29am (Last Edited: 11/7/04, 10:30am)
graphic
>Yes, we have many bigger problems to worry about than this.

I agree on this one...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615
&e=3&u=/nm/20041107/pl_nm/bush_agenda_dc

But, Bush and his administration have other ideas. He will fight (AGAIN) for the inclusion of a constitutional amendment to "define" marriage according to the dictates of his religion.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #887 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Robert Reed  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/7/04, 11:52pm (Last Edited: 11/8/04, 1:14am)
graphic
>Yes, we have many bigger problems to worry about than this.
>
>I agree on this one...
>
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615
&e=3&u
=
>/nm/20041107/pl_nm/bush_agenda_dc
>
>But, Bush and his administration have other ideas. He will
>fight (AGAIN) for the inclusion of a constitutional amendment
>to "define" marriage according to the dictates of his
>religion.

Just like Booga, this subject was not on my mind at election time.
If Adam and Steve want to Wed, I could care less.
If someone wants to officiate and/or join in matrimony a union involving their "pet pooches", I could care less.
HOWEVER the government does NOT HAVE TO SANCTION IT, and thereby say the populace as a whole thinks this is O'K.
Without a "MUM and DAD", none of us would be here.
My personal belief when enacting laws is---"would this law contribute to the "BETTERMENT OF SOCIETY AS A WHOLE"-- my personal belief is ------ NO.
This has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION, but has EVERYTHING to do with ensuring that we will continue to provide a family environment to our children, our parents should not be "ROSIE and her girlfriend-- it's obvious I do not like "ROSIE", (cant help it, sorry.!!!
Society should not prevent Adam and Steve, or Alice and Stephanie from marrying,(their vows would be strictly between them, and they would have "free licence" to do "whatever beneath the sheets" they could say "I DO, and will DO YOU" everyday if they want, and "honeymoon" in Tahiti "to boot", BUT DONT TELL ME I HAVE TO AGREE THAT SOCIETY/CIVILISATION BENEFITS.!!!

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Message #889 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
BBlast
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 5:36am
graphic
>I don't agree with gay marriage. I believe God intended
>marriage to be for a man & a woman. However, who am I to stop
>gay marriage? I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I think
>it's immoral. I think it is disgusting. That being said
>though, if 2 homosexuals want to marry each other, I say let
>them do it as long as our laws protect such an act. I
>personally don't approve of gay marriage, but I agree with
>Vickie. We have more important things to worry about & W. is
>going to get it done. Long live George W. Bush!

I don't understand..you agree that a ban on gay marriage is a waste of time, but then say that we have more important things to do and Dubya is gonna get em done..but just yesterday, Karl Rove said that the gay marriage ban is top of Dubya's list!

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"All human arrogance and ego can be expressed in two words. 'You Should'. "
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Eat at BBlast's - - Home of the California Brisket Sandwich!

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Message #890 of 2187  *NEW*
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BBlast
Dr. Rub
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 6:25am
I say if W. wants to ban gay marriage, & it is passed in Congress, so be it! I don't agree with gay marriage at all! However, how can you legislate or ban gay marriage? I respect Bush for taking a solid stand on this issue. He is the President. He won the election. He is standing for what he believes in. It's not going to hurt my feelings if gay marriage is banned is what I'm trying to say, since I believe it is wrong. I say if it is banned fine! If it isn't banned fine! I disagree with Bush though about it being the top priority on the current agenda right now though. I don't think it should be. However, I support Bush for taking a stand on all of the issues, & gay marriage is certainly one of them! Maybe it shouldn't be the most important issue right now though.

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"Losers always whine about giving their best. Winners get to go home & ---- the prom queen." (Sean Connery)
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Message #893 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
Shon Wells
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 11:01am
I have a completely different view point on this one. My opinion on gay marriage does not play into it. I believe that the government sould not play any role in marriage, gay or stright. The union of two people was done by the church for reasons they belived to be true and correct. The government got into the deal completely for taxes. I believe that the government should withdraw from issuing marriage license, taxing people based on marital statue and having any say in marriage. Leave it to the experts at the church who started this practice. Everytime the government feels they need to stick their nose into something it usually goes astray. Then if some gay church wants to marry gay people, so be it. If a stright church wants to marry stright people, so be it. There are no monitary reasons to get married only sparital...

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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Message #894 of 2187  *NEW*
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Shon Wells
Rob Reed  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 11:41am
graphic
>I have a completely different view point on this one. My
>opinion on gay marriage does not play into it. I believe that
>the government sould not play any role in marriage, gay or
>stright. The union of two people was done by the church for

My God, Shon. Call the media! We agree!

--------------------------------------------------------
"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #898 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Shon Wells
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 6:29pm
Hay Rob, I thougth I felt an earthquake earlier....

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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Message #902 of 2187  *NEW*
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Shon Wells
Dr. Rub
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 7:46pm
You know, if government does not get involved with the gay marriage issue, that's fine. However, strictly from a religious point of view, I can't see it possible for 2 gay people to get married in a church of God. Homosexuality is immoral in my view. 2 gays getting married in a church where people go to worship our Lord Jesus Christ & personal savior should be strictly forbidden. If 2 gays want to get married, they should get married in a state court house, or a church that condones &/or accepts gay marriage. Good luck finding one of those! To me, 2 gays getting married in church where people worship God is a slap in the face to God, christian beliefs, & morality. If the 2 gays want to attend services there & worship, fine! However, they should not marry there.

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"Losers always whine about giving their best. Winners get to go home & ---- the prom queen." (Sean Connery)
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Message #903 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
murphy brown  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/8/04, 9:00pm
graphic
>>I have a completely different view point on this one. My
>>opinion on gay marriage does not play into it. I believe
>that
>>the government sould not play any role in marriage, gay or
>>stright. The union of two people was done by the church for
>
>My God, Shon. Call the media! We agree!

LOL! Ditto that.........

--------------------------------------------------------
"Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave
safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, totally worn out, shouting..Holy Shit!!
What a Ride!!"
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Message #906 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
BBlast
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/9/04, 5:10am
graphic
You have expressed some feelings that we have all heard before but I wanted to explore a bit.

First off, if it seems like I am picking on you or being unfair, PLEASE let me know and I will back off! I don't want to drive you away because of the words we post here, ok?

What I wanted to ask was about gay marriage and why you see it as "disgusting" or "immoral".

BTW, it is a common thing..and I have no idea why..that when people think about gay marriage, they think about the sex part. Well, as a married person I can tell you that the sex is certainly a part of our relationship, but it is minor. To me, a relationship HAS to go FAR beyond sex to be real. "Real" being, a friendship, a partnership...a feeling that the person with you is a part of your life and you a part of theirs.

So when two people decide that they want to get "married", it is more a sharing of lives than it is just getting freaky..would you agree to that?

And if these two people then have a real, true relationship..who is the gov't to step in and keep that from happening? Because of the sex?

And is that the same thing that makes you say that a gay marriage is "immoral"? Is it the sex?

(BTW, I have this discussion with my wife all the time. She too thinks that gay marriage is "immoral" and I am of the ilk that if two people are in a strong relationship, that it is immoral to keep them apart!)

--------------------------------------------------------
"All human arrogance and ego can be expressed in two words. 'You Should'. "
-

Eat at BBlast's - - Home of the California Brisket Sandwich!

www.signatureclaims.net

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Message #907 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
BBlast
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/9/04, 5:18am
graphic
>You know, if government does not get involved with the gay
>marriage issue, that's fine. However, strictly from a
>religious point of view, I can't see it possible for 2 gay
>people to get married in a church of God. Homosexuality is
>immoral in my view. 2 gays getting married in a church where
>people go to worship our Lord Jesus Christ & personal savior
>should be strictly forbidden. If 2 gays want to get married,
>they should get married in a state court house, or a church
>that condones &/or accepts gay marriage. Good luck finding one
>of those! To me, 2 gays getting married in church where people
>worship God is a slap in the face to God, christian beliefs, &
>morality. If the 2 gays want to attend services there &
>worship, fine! However, they should not marry there.

So, if a gay couple goes to church and likes the church and the people and worship at that church, you are saying that they should be denied marriage at that same church?

And "a slap in the face to God" if someone gets married in a church? Seems to me that if god put us all here, that we are special in his/her eyes, be it that one is gay or that one is mentally handicapped...aren't we all special in god's eyes? And if that's the case...how could it be a slap in the face?

--------------------------------------------------------
"All human arrogance and ego can be expressed in two words. 'You Should'. "
-

Eat at BBlast's - - Home of the California Brisket Sandwich!

www.signatureclaims.net

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Message #908 of 2187  *NEW*
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BBlast
murphy brown  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/9/04, 6:48am
graphic
>You have expressed some feelings that we have all heard before
>but I wanted to explore a bit.
>
>First off, if it seems like I am picking on you or being
>unfair, PLEASE let me know and I will back off! I don't want
>to drive you away because of the words we post here, ok?
>
>What I wanted to ask was about gay marriage and why you see it
>as "disgusting" or "immoral".
>
>BTW, it is a common thing..and I have no idea why..that when
>people think about gay marriage, they think about the sex
>part. Well, as a married person I can tell you that the sex is
>certainly a part of our relationship, but it is minor. To me,
>a relationship HAS to go FAR beyond sex to be real. "Real"
>being, a friendship, a partnership...a feeling that the person
>with you is a part of your life and you a part of theirs.
>
>So when two people decide that they want to get "married", it
>is more a sharing of lives than it is just getting
>freaky..would you agree to that?
>
>And if these two people then have a real, true
>relationship..who is the gov't to step in and keep that from
>happening? Because of the sex?
>
>And is that the same thing that makes you say that a gay
>marriage is "immoral"? Is it the sex?
>
>(BTW, I have this discussion with my wife all the time. She
>too thinks that gay marriage is "immoral" and I am of the ilk
>that if two people are in a strong relationship, that it is
>immoral to keep them apart!)
>
Cound't have said it better myself. I agree with you BB. I have several same sex close friends that are in committed, loving relationships and indeed it isn't just about sex. One couple have adopted a baby....He is a dentist and well known in his community. Bet that tweaks Rub.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave
safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, totally worn out, shouting..Holy Shit!!
What a Ride!!"
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Message #909 of 2187  *NEW*
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BBlast
Rob Reed  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/9/04, 9:09am
graphic
Believe it or not, I'm coming out to support Dr. Rub.

The Bible specifically provides that homosexuality is wrong. And, I think that a claim/opinion by someone that homosexuality is "immoral" or "unnatural" is supported by natural logic.

If we were indeed "created," we were created such that we could procreate... and what a wonderful system that is, may I add... sorry about that interruption.

Sex was the system that was created to allow our species to continue on. Logically, a man to man or woman to woman relationship... where the relevant parts, so to speak, "cancel out each other" makes the relationship -- on its face -- "unnatural."

I can't really argue against that.

I do, in fact, believe homosexuality to be against the intentions of God, or whatever it is that created us.

Where I differ with Dr. Rub is that I think homosexuality IS natural in that I don't think homosexuality is a "learned" behavior. I really think that you are born with it.

>So, if a gay couple goes to church and likes the church and
>the people and worship at that church, you are saying that
>they should be denied marriage at that same church?

If it is a Catholic/Christian church, absolutely. If the dictates of the religion deny them that right, then those individuals should change churches/religions.

Try asking a Rabbi if you could get married in Temple with a Christmas tree sitting inside the chupa.

>And "a slap in the face to God" if someone gets married in a
>church? Seems to me that if god put us all here, that we are
>special in his/her eyes, be it that one is gay or that one is
>mentally handicapped...aren't we all special in god's eyes?
>And if that's the case...how could it be a slap in the face?

I don't think Rub will disagree with this.

BUT, to those who believe firmly in the Catholic/Christian dogma, though, those who sin in the eyes of God must suffer the consequences...

This, of course, I disagree with. Of course, I may disagree because I am a Jew... and, therefore, by definition, I am doomed to hell unless I repent and convert.

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Message #916 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Dr. Rub
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/9/04, 10:27pm
You articulate so very well Rob! I could have not said it better myself.

I am basing my argument from the Bible, like you mentioned.

Can 2 homosexuals get married in a church? I think it depends on the church's stance on gay marriage. However, if christian or protestant churches base their teachings & preachings from the Bible, how can those churches condone gay marriage &/or support homosexuality?

I'm sorry I've been so candid on this issue. I sinceraly hope I haven't offended anyone.

I've said about all I can say on this topic.

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Message #919 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
BBlast
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
11/10/04, 8:44am
graphic
>You articulate so very well Rob! I could have not said it
>better myself.
>
>I am basing my argument from the Bible, like you mentioned.

That could get you into a LOT of trouble right there! I mean..first off, there was homosexuality before the Bible, during the Biblical times and certainly afterwards.

Popes have been known to share their beds with boys. So..if the top guy can bend the rules....


>I've said about all I can say on this topic.

OK...I'll respect that and stop.

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Eat at BBlast's - - Home of the California Brisket Sandwich!

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Message #1748 of 2187  *NEW*
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Rob Reed
Rob Reed  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
6/4/06, 11:43am
graphic
I guess, considering the recent Bush news, it is appropriate to bump this post...

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"Treat the Earth not as if it was given to you by your parents, but as if it was lent to you by your children." - Kenyan Proverb

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Message #1749 of 2187  *NEW*
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Dr. Rub
saundrabeach  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
6/4/06, 3:25pm
graphic
As far as gay marriages go...I say...as long as I see happy eyes on both partners, it doesn't matter the gender of them...However a moment of thought here...as long as one of them isn't one of my sons. lol Just kidding.

Who is to say where are freedoms end...Bush? The church? Well Government has too much involvement in out lives starting with telling a woman whether or not she can be in charge of her own body...another long keg of wax...

I think it is time to "throw another barrel of TEA overboard..."

Do you feel our opinions and wishes really count?

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Message #1762 of 2187  *NEW*
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BBlast
saundrabeach  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
6/6/06, 10:00am
graphic
Mentioning God...did he make a man out of Adam's rib? hummmm...why not???....Oh yes he wanted to populate the earth.

Regardless of ones religious belief..everyone knows about the "rules" written and unwritten Godwise...

I live and let live for the most part. Having said that, I only re-thought my views on gay marriage when indeed I had four sons..While I only stated that "I wanted to see happy eyes on my sons and their intended," didn't stipulate that they had or should marry within their religion or ethnicity. After much thought, I within myself, realised that perhaps one of them may very well choose to be gay. I would have adapted if I had the occasion.

Talked about this with all my sons at the time, and after confused surprised looks, they most likely appreciated this fact.

No, they aren't gay but I was ready to accept whatever they chose for their lives basically.

Still maintaining my "mother-in-law status!

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Message #1763 of 2187  *NEW*
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BBlast
saundrabeach  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
6/6/06, 10:07am (Last Edited: 6/6/06, 10:10am)
graphic
>You articulate so very well Rob! I could have not said it
>better myself.

KUDOS TO ROB AS WELL!

>
>I am basing my argument from the Bible, like you mentioned.
>
>That could get you into a LOT of trouble right there! I
>mean..first off, there was homosexuality before the Bible,
>during the Biblical times and certainly afterwards.


GOD WAS BEFORE THE BIBLE AND BEFORE HOMOSEXUALITY! Heavy topic.

THE DEVIL WAS AFTER GOD BUT BEFORE THE BIBLE TOO.


>
>Popes have been known to share their beds with boys. So..if
>the top guy can bend the rules....


This makes no sense at all. SCARES ME IF OTHERS AGREE WITH THIS WAY OF THINKING. (perhaps you are being tongue in cheek)
>
>


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Message #1766 of 2187  *NEW*
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saundrabeach
saundrabeach  
Re: The Gay Marriage Issue and the 2004 election
6/6/06, 3:12pm
graphic
Apropos of this topic.


God said, "Adam, I want you to do something for me."

Adam said, "Gladly, Lord, what do You want me to do?"

God said, "Go down into that valley."

Adam said, "What's a valley?"

God explained it to him.

Then God said, "Cross the river."

Adam said, "What's a river?"

God explained that to him, and then said, "Go over to the hill......."

Adam said, "What is a hill?"

So, God explained to Adam what a hill was.

He told Adam, "On the other side of the hill you will find a cave"

Adam said, "What's a cave?"

After God explained, he said, "In the cave you will find a Woman."

Adam said, "What's a woman?"

So God explained that to him, too.

Then, God said, "I want you to reproduce."

Adam said, "How do I do that?"

God first said (under his breath), "Geez....."

And then, just like everything else, God explained that to Adam, as well.

So, Adam goes down into the valley, across the river,
and over the hill, into the cave, and finds the woman.

Then, in about five minutes, he was back.

God, his patience wearing thin, said angrily, "What is it now?"

And Adam said, "What's a headache?"


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